Was the 1991 Eagles Defense the Best Ever?
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The Pittsburgh Steel Curtain defenses of the 1970s are highly regarded among football fans as the best-ever. The 1985 Super Bowl-Shufflin' Chicago Bears are said to have had the best squad of the modern era. Even the 2000 Baltimore Ravens have their admirers.
But in 1991, Bud Carson—the same architect of those Steel Curtain defenses—had the best defensive personnel and personalities ever assembled on an NFL field.
The Eagles' lack of postseason success in that era causes their defense to be somewhat overlooked in the discussions of the best-ever squads. Those failures were largely the fault of the offense.
In 1991, the Birds did not even make the postseason, starting five different quarterbacks due to a string of injuries. Even so, the team cobbled together a 10-6 record.
When looking at the individual pieces of the 1991 Eagles defense, it is staggering how complete the unit was.
The line was anchored by Reggie White, perhaps the greatest defensive player to ever play football. Reggie’s ability to regularly destroy double teams allowed his counterpart, DE Clyde Simmons, to add another 13 sacks to Reggie’s 15. Each collected more than 100 tackles apiece, an astounding total for any defensive end, let alone any two on the same team.
The run-stuffing tackles were led by the larger-than-life Jerome Brown, who tallied nine sacks of his own that year, earning a second consecutive Pro Bowl berth.
Alas, 1991 was the last year in what could have been a Hall of Fame career for Brown, who was killed tragically in an automobile accident during that off-season. Even then, Brown's spirit inspired the 1992 team to another fine season, which ended in the Eagles' first playoff victory in 12 years, against the New Orleans Saints.
The linebacking corps was led by Seth Joyner and Byron Evans. In recording 100-plus tackles, seven sacks, six forced fumbles and three interceptions, Joyner played at an All-Pro level that year. Evans made more than 100 tackles himself.
The defensive backfield was anchored by Eric Allen, one of the best cover cornerbacks in the history of the NFL, and who should end up in Canton. Allen earned the second of his six Pro Bowl selections in 1991.
The safety tandem of Wes Hopkins and Andre Waters struck fear into the hearts of opposing receivers. These two were as much the heart and soul of this fearsome defense as any other of its component, roaming the middle of the field like cold-eyed killers, daring receivers to enter their realm.
The ferocity of the defense was the aspect that elevates it above any other in NFL history. Other NFL teams feared playing against the 1991 Eagles defense. The eye test often tells a deeper story than do the stats.
Carson's squad was as violent and single-minded as a school of sharks that smells blood. Its purpose was to punish opponents as much as to tackle them. The 1991 Eagles actually intimidated other NFL players, feeding on the opportunity to extract blood from their opponents.
The best example of this was the famous “House of Pain Game” against the Houston Oilers, who had taken to calling their stadium, the Houston Astrodome, the “House of Pain” for their opponents.
On Monday Night Football with the nation watching, the Eagles manhandled the Oilers, forcing six fumbles while holding the high-flying Houston team to 21 yards rushing and just six points.
The Eagles literally bloodied the speedy Oilers receivers, who refused to go over the middle, into the teeth of the Eagles defense, after seeing one of their own being carted off the field with a broken nose. In choosing safety over valor, the Oilers receivers lived to play another day, but without their usual contribution, the game belonged to the Eagles.
After the game, Jerome Brown famously quipped, “They brought the house. We brought the pain.”
In 1991, the Eagles played in the toughest division in football. The 1985 Bears played in a putrid division. Despite that, the '91 Eagles allowed 35 fewer yards per game than did the '85 Bears.
In fact, the 1991 Eagles put up the second-best numbers against the run and the pass in the history of the NFL. That the same defense could achieve both in the same year is inconceivable; the Bears were third against the pass in 1985 alone.
Football Outsiders ranks the 1991 Eagles as the greatest defensive team in history, noting “they completely lap the field in terms of defensive DVOA,” a complex ranking formula that considers the quality of opponents in determining the value of a defense.
The 1991 Eagles led the league in fewest yards allowed against the rush, the pass, and overall. The squad led the league in sacks, forced fumbles, and takeaways. Half the defense made the 1991 Pro Bowl. Their ferocity and ability to inspire fear in their opponents was unmatched in NFL history.
The 1985 Bears were great—but the 1991 Eagles were better.
Jack Walden
1:19 pm on Monday, July 23, 2012
I really enjoyed being brought back to the past. Forgot all about Rich Kotite, one of the worlds worst coaches. As you know after he left the Eagles for the Jets, they got worse than they were and went 1-15 in the only season Kotite coached them. If they would have had Jeff Fisher instead, even though he was a defensive coordinator, I'm sure they could have gone all the way with that defense and a slightly better offense. . Great column, great choice of video!
Matt Skoufalos
2:40 pm on Monday, July 23, 2012
Kotite's face popping up in that movie shocked me something fierce when I saw it.
Mike Diviney
4:57 pm on Monday, July 23, 2012
Re-forget about Rich Kotite. What a sad era of Birds football. Going from Buddy to Kotite was depressing.
Reed Rothchild
2:33 pm on Monday, July 23, 2012
Excellent points. The Legen...wait for it...dary "Gang Green" Defense is no doubt one of, if not the best defense, to ever line up together in the NFL. It's a shame they didn't make any significant progress in the post season, but they couldn't play offense as well. I thank the 91 D for providing a lifetime of awesome memories but the point of the NFL season is to win the Superbowl and excel in all 3 parts of the game, or at least good enough in the 3 to win significant games. Until the Eagles do that none of the glitz and glamour really matter besides help us enjoy/tolerate the high-end mediocrity the Eagles provide for us. GO BIRDS!
Mike Diviney
5:00 pm on Monday, July 23, 2012
Reed, "high-end mediocrity" is an oxymoron, but I get your point. They didn't win the postseason games they needed to, but man were they fun. Hopefully, we can finally get one soon.
Bo
2:40 pm on Monday, July 23, 2012
You can't forget the '77 Falcons, "Gritz Blitz" defense, when speaking of the greatest defenses ever. This unit still holds NFL records for fewest points allowed per game at 9.8 pts and 129 pts overall.
Mike Diviney
5:01 pm on Monday, July 23, 2012
Unless they played a 13 game season that year, your numbers don't add up. Besides, name a couple guys from the defense that are household names. They are forgotten in the conversation because they don't belong in it!
Alonzo Mosley
6:15 pm on Monday, July 23, 2012
What a topic. It is difficult for me to even look at this subject objectively against other defenses so I won't even try. All I can say is I have never seen a defense so dominant since (2000 ravens were excellent but not as dominant). Whenever I see clips of that era it is obvious that offenses didn't have an answer to the heat the Eagles defense brought. You couldn't move the ball consistently against talent like that. And chances are if you were able to move the ball some, at some point there would be a turnover. Love the article......and I think the only reason someone might not agree with "best ever" is one name. Toast......Izel Jenkins.
Mike Diviney
7:11 pm on Monday, July 23, 2012
Toast was weak, but the cast of superstars with a penchant for violence more than made up for it.
Phil McConkey
7:04 pm on Monday, July 23, 2012
the 10 wins came with only beating 3 teams with a winning record and the third winning team was the Redskins who already had the division locked up. This is a great debate however I don't think you can call them the best since they weren't really tested since we all know playoff football is where teams are really tested. But I assume you are playing Super Tecmo bowl and just got fired up playing with the Eagles defense so I understand
Mike Diviney
7:10 pm on Monday, July 23, 2012
Phil, after losing Randall on Opening Day, they played Jim McMahon, Brad Goebel, Pat Ryan and Jeff Kemp at QB. Avg age: 64, without Goebel. Had they won 10 games that year in the PAC-10, it would have been an momentous accomplishment.
Mike
3:40 pm on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
I tend to agree with Phil...if you want to be considered as one of the great defenses ever, you have to be able to carry the entire team and win it all (classic example...Baltimore's D with Trent Dilfer at QB). So the Bird's 91 defense is the Dan Marino of D's. Incredible stats, and definitely in the conversion, but not the best.
Larry O'Doyle
10:02 pm on Monday, July 23, 2012
Wow! This article got me so fired up I horse-collared my wife down the steps. Might as well skip the concussion tests, she's out cold. Anyway, this version of Gang Green was the most dominant defense I certainly have witnessed. The discrepancy between the offense and defense on this team was just as startling. Instilling fear in your opponent is no small feat in professional sports and this defense did so on a weekly basis. The greats like Phil Simms and Troy Aikman still shudder when recounting memories of facing the best defense of all-time.
Gritz Blitz? Never heard of them but that's a classic nickname
Ray Lewis (in his prime) is the best MLB of all-time
Mike Diviney
3:11 pm on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
In my opinion you can't say all-time if you haven't seen Butkus or Bednarik. That's why separating into eras is usefull- like 1980 on. Phil Simms' and Bill Parcells' accounts of playing against that D, in that stadium- the Vet- are classic.
Mike Diviney
5:12 pm on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
Great comment by the way. Give the wife some smelling salts- and get her some baseline testing for next time.
Sean McCullen
10:57 pm on Monday, July 23, 2012
Love Gang Green, but my vote goes to the '85 Bears. They got it done when it counted, too, and in just as dominating a fashion as they had during the regular season.
Mike Diviney
3:13 pm on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
Agree to disagree. It's certainly close so going either way is understandable. I'll take Reggie White over Mike Singletary as leader of my D any day of the week, but you could do a lot worse than Singletary.
Bo
11:08 pm on Monday, July 23, 2012
Mike, be reasonable, they do belong in the conversation, and though I know they weren't better than the '91 Eagles or '85 Bears, however I know they'd be in the top five of any list of all-time defensive units. I've never heard of a 13 game schedule, but the Falcons did play a 14 game schedule that year. Never the less there numbers are astounding anyway you slice it. No offensive they faced that season had more than 100 yds passing. Check out this piece on the 'Gritz Blitz,' by noted football writer Paul Zimmerman, http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/dr_z/news/2001/10/17/drz_insider/, who quotes Bill Walsh stating something to the contrary, in comparing the two defensive gurus, Jerry Glanville and Buddy Ryan.
Mike Diviney
3:18 pm on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
Your stats were 129 at 9.8 points a game, which equals 13 games. Actually, 13.16 so your stats are impossible because you're right, there's never been a 13 game schedule. Buddy Ryan vs. Jerry Glanville- enough said. Again, name the household name from that defense. I can name 5-6 from '91 and not just because we're in the Philly area.
K Webb
10:23 am on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
Devilney, i caln't stalnd your writing style or your alntics
Gang green defense was the most dominant defense I have seen ever seen, especially with those 3 and out offenses. Put it this way, if Marty Morningwig were the coach of the 1991 birds and deffered the OT coin toss...he would have been correct.
Mike Diviney
3:19 pm on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
Get your dalm halnds... I'll leave it at that. Great call on the coin-flip.
K Webb
10:24 am on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
Great Job on these articles by the way Mike
Mike Diviney
3:19 pm on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
Thanks man. Great to have you on-board.
Mike Diviney
4:06 pm on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
If the Eagles had Trent Dilfer or another average or competent QB, the Ravens would be a fitting comparison. After Randall and McMahon, they had a 100 year old Jeff Kemp, who was never very good in the 1st place, Brad Goebel- a rookie from Baylor who'd never started a game and Pat Ryan, who Kotite literally got off a construction site. He was a foreman on a building crew the week before Kotite signed him. Trading in a hard-hat for a football helmet is never a good sign. There are limits to how much 1 side of the ball can carry a team. Ask Dan Marino.
Bo
5:01 pm on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
There not my stats, click the link in my previous post, or just read it here. 'The 1977 Falcons set a modern record with 129 points allowed over the 14-game season, a better per-game average than Baltimore had last year.' They led the league in pass defense with fewer than 100 yards a game, off a 44 percent completion percentage. They gave up nine TD passes for the season.'
What the heck does it matter if you can name individuals, were speaking of defensive units right. Remember the no-name defense, of the undefeated Dolphins team. I mention this defense because as I learned more about it I concluded that Jerry Glanville was putting 9 in the box and using many different blitz schemes, way before Buddy was. This '77 Falcons defense was the forerunner to what Buddy did in Chicago and here, and also what Jim Johnson was doing. Bill Walsh said Glanville's defense was the original, in Zimmerman's article in the above link.
Mike Diviney
5:05 pm on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
I copied those stats from your previous post so... Yes, I've heard of the No Name Defense, but not the Gritz Blitz, nor has anyone else. If they were that great, someone outside of Atl, besides you would have brought them up in this conversation. 14 game season and other such differences make it too different for comparisons. I'm sure they were great, Eagles '91 was better.
Porterincollingswood
5:26 pm on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
My understanding was that the Gritz Blitz was a defensive play (blitz everyone) as opposed to an entire unit or even a system.
Bo
1:28 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
First off Paul Zimmerman, a member of the football hall of fame as a journalist heard of it as many others did at the time. Second those Steel Curtain defenses played with a 14 game schedule and the records he noted were better than those defensive units. Sure gimmick, Glanville was the secondary coach, but if you read the piece Zimmerman and Walsh both note that these 'gimmicks' were first implemented by that '77 Falcons defense, then copied and used to varying degrees by Buddy for his '46' and even Jim Johnson and his Eagle defensive units more so. These 'gimmicks' are still NFL records, so let's bone-up on some NFL history, cause when speaking of great defensive minds as Johnson and Ryan were, this Gritz Blitz unit and what they accomplished inspired what we saw with Buddy and those two all time best units which your comparing here. Buddy surely improved it, What I am most impressed by is the time of possession stats of that '77 Falcons teams, with a real bad offense, wherein their defense was on the field running their blitz packages for far greater an amount of time than the '85 Bears and '91 Eagles defense, Yes that ;91 Eagles offense, without Randall, was far worse than that Falcons offense. If you like stats check out this statistical analysis from a Steelers website, which supports the greatness of that '77 Falcons defense. This proves how good they were.
http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2009/3/10/775679/a-statistical-analysis-on
Mike Diviney
5:10 pm on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
Wasn't Glanville just a secondary coach with the '77 Falcons?
Mike Diviney
5:29 pm on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
Your understanding is correct. It was a play where they would send 9, ostensibly to force the offense to go to max protect. It was considered as unsound as a defense could get, but I guess it worked so you have to give them some credit. They're not in this conversation in my opinion.
Porter, where do stand on the '91 Birds D?
Porterincollingswood
8:29 pm on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
More of a gimmick than anything else, and modern day pass offenses would eat it alive while 46 defensive concepts remain core tactics of great NFL defenses. So the 46 wins that debate.
You'd have to say the 85 Bears vs 91 Eagles and maybe the SB Ravens are among the best of this era. I'd score it like this between the Birds and Bears...
Defensive Line: push (Dent and the DT's of the Bears have to be respected)
Linebackers: Bears (Wilbur Marshall, Otis Wilson, and Mike Singletary were all-time)
Secondary: Eagles, in a landslide
Our DL was very close. And the Eagles DB's were so much better than what the Bears had.
On talent, the Birds were better. The Bears got further because of the 46 was newer and offenses were slow to react to it. But they also had Sweetness. Birds didn't have that luxury.
Porterincollingswood
8:07 am on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
Meaning the Gritz Blitz was a gimmick.
Jeem
7:44 pm on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
The 91 birds defense was amazing. But they had Jenkins who was a weak link. No playoffs makes this a non argument. 85 Bears D.
Porterincollingswood
8:33 pm on Tuesday, July 24, 2012
Izel Jenkins was fine player, a big corner who played solid run defense. He got picked on because teams would not throw at Allen.
Jenkins would be a B+ player now. Look at modern day CB's, Deangelo Hall is a "star" and he's never been able to cover or tackle anyone.
And he was an 11th round pick, no?
Now Ben Smith, there's a guy who could've been great. Sadly played in are when knee injuries were crippling.
Mike Diviney
2:30 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
I disagree. They didn't make the playoffs because there offense was pathetic with the cast of characters playing QB. Eagles had Heath Sherman, Bears had Walter Payton- enough said there.
Mike Diviney
2:26 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
Woah Porter, D-line a push?! No way, Reggie was the best D lineman ever, Clyde Simmons 14th all time in sacks, Jerome was dominant and had 9 sacks from the tackle spot. Would give a slight edge to Bears LB's because Al Harris wasn't great- neither was Otis Wilson- but Seth and B&E were both great players, especially that year.
Porterincollingswood
3:42 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
But look at Dent (HOF), McMichael, Perry, and Hampton. All very accomplished long-term with the exception of Perry who was a force of nature that year. It's close. In my heart I say Eagles, but I don't think I walk into a court of neutral fans and win that argument.
PS - Otis Wilson had some very good stats and was a key member of the team. Al Harris was a bit of a liability as he got stood up on blitzes since he was so tall.
PPS - I think Seth was better than Wilbur Marshall and Byron Evans was one of the under-rated athletes in Philly history. But Singletary is an all-timer.
Porterincollingswood
4:07 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
And here are some additional points that argue in the Bears favor:
1) McMichael was a wrestling partner with Ric Flair
2) Perry inspired use of 40oz bottle in "Bud Bowl"
3) "Super Bowl Shuffle" way better than "Buddy's Watching You"
Lemme guess, I had you at Ric Flair.
Mike Diviney
2:27 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
Also Porter is correct in saying the Gritz Blitz would be demolished by today's NFL offenses. Particularly with all the rules that have been put in favoring the offense.
Mike Diviney
2:28 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
Bo, you never even saw the Gritz Blitz defense. If they were that great, they would be more well-known like the other great defenses. I'm sure they were great, but not great enough to be in this debate. Still waiting for a few big names from that D.
Mike Diviney
2:32 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
Izel Jenkins would be a B+ player in the Big Ten maybe. He was often left on an island, but he was poor cover guy any which way you slice it. Thank God they had a great pass rush or he would have really been exposed, even with the great safeties helping him out.
Porterincollingswood
3:43 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
That was the scheme, though. If the pass rush didn't get to the QB Izel's man would be open. You know Eric Allen's guy wasn't going to be.
Mike Diviney
2:32 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
Oh, and Ben Smith would have been great. Tough luck there.
Porterincollingswood
3:43 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
Wes Welker got that injury and was out 5 minutes. Guys like Ben were in the wrong era.
Fabiola Et
3:58 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
How clever! Of all your articles, this one really got me fired up fabulously. YEAH!!!!
Mike Diviney
4:08 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
Happy to hear that. Stay tuned!
Mike Diviney
4:14 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
Fortunately, the pass rush almost always got there.
Mike Diviney
4:16 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
Did Welker really have the same injury as Ben Smith? Smith did come back later as I recall, but wasn't the same guy.
The Super Bowl Shuffle was much better than Buddy's Watching You. I liked it, but you can't be recording songs unless you're wearing a ring.
Stolo is out wide
7:56 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
Mike,
You are right about the best of all time. I will go one step further and declare number 92 the best player to ever touch a blade of grass! I am not joking either. Regardless, the argument about winning it all is relevant because they would have been even more dominant with more rest and a mediocre offensive line. Great job writing and keep it up. Next article might be how the Vet if still in existence, would be the best stadium in the NFL!
Mike Diviney
10:14 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
Well, you'd have to qualify best player ever, with best "defensive" player. LT is the obvious top competitor and it's really close. They were both so dominant. And Michael Haddix used to take out LT so I'm going with Reggie!
Porterincollingswood
7:40 am on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Reggie always gets the nod over LT. Most of LT's sacks were straight runs at the QB where he was unblocked (granted, due to his incredible speed off the snap).
Conversely, Reggie had to fight through double and triple teams for every one of those sacks.
Porterincollingswood
9:34 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
Counterpoint: The Bears won with one of the worst coaches in the league. Ditka was 100% marketing. He was a brutal head coach, as we learned later in his time in Chicago and in New Orleans.
So the 85 Bears overcame that as well.
Mike Diviney
10:16 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
I don't think Ditka was brutal at all. I think he was at least above average. We're talking about the D and they were coached by Buddy Ryan, who's 46 innovation was in its infancy at the time and offenses hadn't adapted yet.
Porterincollingswood
7:38 am on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Right, so what did Ditka do? The defense was Buddy's.
Ditka did nothing but stomp his feet, yell, make angry faces, and rely on other to win games. He's a SNL skit.
Mike Diviney
10:17 pm on Wednesday, July 25, 2012
On the D-Line, I couldn't disagree more. Looking at it objectively, the Eagles is better in my opinion. I'll give the Bears the LB matchup in a very close competition. Eagles Defensive Secondary blows the Bears away.
Bo
2:28 am on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Sure didn't see that '77 falcons defense, but how many times did any of us see that '85 Bears defense. I was 11 and I suspect others here weren't much older or younger, and if they played a 1pm game, we would have all seen the Eagles first and Monday night football started @9pm then. So no one here actually saw that much of this Bears defense. This myth of how superior that Bears defense was to all other defenses, in the history of the game, is aided by how good that Bears offense was, led by one of the most underrated QBs of all-time, who also had a pretty good play-caller as head coach. This QB, like our Eagles QB now, didn't like to slide, and often put his Bear teammates and coaches in the bad situation of missing far too many games due to injury. Those great Eagle and Falcon defensive units are forgotten and disrespected because their offensive units were bad.
Mike Ditka, a brutal head coach, 100% marketing, sounds as foolish as saying whoever is a bad QB, but he was QB for a Super Bowl winner. Ditka won one playoff game without Buddy as his DC, and that was against Buddy the HC, whose QB threw for 407 yards against pretty much the same average Bear secondary which was on the '85 team. If Ditka was so brutal how did he beat this great Eagles defense, with Mike Tomczak at QB. Whoever here put Richard Dent in the same sentence as Reggie should wash their mouth with soap now.
http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2009/3/10/775679/a-statistical-analysis-on
Porterincollingswood
7:37 am on Thursday, July 26, 2012
You seem to know a lot about a team you claim not to have seen much of.
Sports are great because you can debate it endlessly - most of it is speculation.
Porterincollingswood
7:45 am on Thursday, July 26, 2012
We're comparing the 1985 Bears and 1991 Eagles - so if you just isolate the stats for those years - not body of work over a career - then Dent is worthy of comparison. He wasn't the run defender that Reggie was, but the sack production was there.
Bo
3:49 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Yeah the sack production, there was a reason dan hampton was the first one from that defensive line to be enshrined in Canton, as he had less sacks than Mongo and Dent. Hampton was the keystone that made their numbers possible, and the whole '46' defense run. Reggie is on the Mt Rushmore of defenders to ever play the sport, and Dent is buying a ticket to take pictures from below. I spent 7 years living on the North Side of Chicago after college. So surely through osmosis or reading the Sun-Times or watching CSN Chicago which would replay any number of those games from '85 and call it classic something or another, wherein I think this is a non argument and that '91 Eagles Defense was a bit better, but then again I am biased so ... but seriously to say Ditka was brutal, sounds stupid, that team, with Buddy already there as the Defensive Coordinator was horrible in the early 80's and for much of the 70's. Halas was in serious health decline during this time. Ditka then takes over for '82 or '83 season I think and they win the Super Bowl in '85, but you say they did it in spite of him, come now.
Bo
4:08 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
That Eagles defense, as great as it was, didn't have Dan Hampton, cause if they did, it would have been scary to see how much better Reggie's numbers and really all their individual stats might have been, Then this Eagles defense would have be light years better than that '85 Bears defense.
Mike Diviney
5:12 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Dent got plenty of sacks Porter, but Reggie was far superior. He occupied 2-3 guys and was still more effective than Dent.
Mike Diviney
5:13 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Porter, LT was so disruptive, he was THE guy O-coordinators to account for and they still couldn't stop him. He's a Giant so I hate him, but you have to respect his game.
Porterincollingswood
5:32 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
I didn't disrespect him at all. He's the best LB ever, one of a handful of guys that - on tape - look every bit as fast / strong then as players do now (OJ and Herschel included in that category).
I just give White more credit because he had to battle huge guys who put their hands on him.
Gary B
5:47 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Admittedly his disruption was partly due to the fact that he sent up coke and escorts to the opposing Tackle the night before a game LOL...and not to mention the cheese spreads and other fatty foods in gift baskets. The only time he treated the O line nicely was on Saturday nights lol....except for as he says the Cardinals, because they were never good either way. LT was great.
Mike Diviney
5:14 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Dan Hampton is the deciding factor? Jerome Brown was better than Dan Hampton. Your opinions, Bo, on this topic are far off base.
Mike Diviney
5:16 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Bo, I agree with you on Ditka, but the Bears beat the Eagles because the fog rolled in when the Bears were ahead... and because Keith Jackson dropped several passes including one standing alone in the end zone.
Bo
8:58 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Both teams played in the fog Mike, and Tomczak threw a 64 yd TD to Dennis McKinnon in it. Deciding factor, huh, the Eagles defense was better? Off base about what, I never mentioned Jerome, and wasn't Mike Pitts the other tackle. Mongo and the Fridge were better than Pitts. Hampton played both tackle and end in this defense, and though he wasn't better than Reggie, he was a hell of a lot better than Clyde. Hampton was a great fit for Buddy's defense. Do you want to believe, that man for man, the '91 Eagles defense was better than the '85 Bears defense, cause that just isn't true. What really matters is that this Eagles defense was better overall, which is true.
Mike Diviney
5:17 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Porter, you're really disrespecting Ditka. He wasn't celebrated because of an SNL skit, they made a skit out of him because he was celebrated.
Porterincollingswood
5:30 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Because all of those comics were from Chicago. Look it up.
Mike Diviney
5:32 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
I'll take your word for it, but if their hometown coach was like Mike Sherman or George Seifert, the skit wouldn't have worked.
Porterincollingswood
5:40 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Right, because they were too busy coaching and designing plays to find time to chew gum with their mouth open and throw hissy fits on the sideline.
Seriously, Buddy defense + a playbook limited to "Payton Right" and "Peyton Left".
In the modern era of football guys like him couldn't compete. Those Dan Reeves, Joe Gibbs, Ditka types are playing checkers. Today's NFL coaches are playing chess.
Mike Diviney
5:50 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Reeves and Gibbs were both great coaches and it wasn't THAT long ago. In fact, when there were fewer teams and less free agency, they were competing with superior teams at times. Guys like the ones you mentioned, Parcells, Walsh, etc., would have been successful in any era.
Mike Diviney
5:52 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Gary B, I wonder how true those stories are. I heard it was the opposing RB, but either way, the guy dominating games.
Gary B
5:57 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
He was quoted in his book as saying such, and over the years some O line men have given less than defiant defenses lol
Agree either way, looking back especially, he was great.
And he got the idea from a running back btw, Eric Dickerson.
Bo
9:13 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Playbook limited to Peyton right or left, how well did that work before Ditka made McMahon his first pick as head coach? Payton came into the league in '75. Ditka is one of the best Tight Ends in NFL history, he must know a bit about implementing an effective passing game.
Porterincollingswood
10:49 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Bo, you need to look at some tape and some stats of this team - the one you admit you don't know much about yet continue to make sweeping statements about.
McMahon's numbers in 1985, and the passing game in general, were horrid. Dreadful. Putrid. The man had 15 TD's that year - laughably enough, this was his career high.
In 1985 Payton surpassed 2,000 yards rushing and receiving. It was a very slightly above-average year for one of the best backs in NFL history.
I don't care how good the offense was in Tecmo Bowl, it was brutally bad on the field. That team was carried by the defense every bit as much as the 2000 Ravens carried Dilfer & Co.
Mike Diviney
10:57 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
For once, I agree Bo. However, unless you were talking about Manning, Walter's name was actually spelled Payton... with an "a".
Mike Diviney
11:00 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Gary B, so Dickerson recommended that LT send hookers to the opposing RB's room the night before? I guess that makes sense and ED had some good times the night before playing the Giants!
Gary B
11:13 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Can't speak for LT and say whether Dickerson recommended it or not (or if they even had a convo about it) but LT did say that Dickerson is who inspired him to send up 'room service'.
The 80's were wild in NYC, anything and everything was happening there, a little coke was deemed harmless..remember this was the place where Brookshier and Pat Summerall took a horse into the Plaza
(and for a discussion on another matter for another day, I have some wild and funny tales about Doc Gooden and the Straw, gems)
Mike Diviney
11:02 pm on Thursday, July 26, 2012
Hmmm, McMahon's stats were never great, but he was a winner. He was so injury riddled his entire career, it's hard to tell how good or bad he was. But he won a ring and I tend to feel like he deserved it more than Dilfer. Remember, that Ravens team went FIVE games without scoring an offensive TD during that regular season.
Porterincollingswood
8:08 am on Friday, July 27, 2012
And his leading receiver in 1985 was...Walter Payton.
It really is amazing to look at the stats of that man. Bo is correct, he was well into his career when he was putting up that level of production in 1985. It's a workload that you just don't see anymore, and probably for good reason. His use of pain killing drugs is easily explained by an examination of the sustained 300 carry seasons. We've seen smaller workloads wreck guys like Jamal Lewis, Jamal Anderson, Clinton Portis, and many others.
Bo
1:13 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012
Listen Peyton Porter .. glad you learned how to spell his name correctly now, I guess Mike missed that like i missed the '77 Falcons season, You need to look at the context of that previous comment I made, Mike, who I guess just wants to have a debate for the greatest defense of all time, but with only three teams, but really just that Bears and Eagles units. Mike say that I had never seen that Falcons team so how much could I know about them, and then I said in counterpoint, when you really think about none of us, including myself saw that much of that Bears team, so what are you and I rightfully debating about it here. That said your 'sweeping generalizations' about a Falcons defense that apparently you or Mike don't know too much about, as you stated that it was one 'gimmicky' play. If you don't know anything about this defense I put those links so you could gain some wisdom. I know this much, McMahon was a winner and how might you quantify that, we saw it to a lesser extent when he was with us. So that 'horrible' season you note that Jim had in '85 ended up with a Super Bowl ring on his finger, and I assure you his teammates will credit him with playing a full season, was one of the many things that went right that year, which assured them a Super Bowl win. You are right when you said Mike Ditka was a media creation, cause he has been on ESPN for quite a bit now. I just think you were off 20 years, and Mike was an NFL great before he took his 1st coaching job.
Porterincollingswood
3:57 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012
Bo, what makes it a complex argument - and a fun one to have - is that it can't be all about numbers OR all about wins-losses OR all about winning a Super Bowl or all about pure talent level.
I just don't think Ditka was an offensive genius, he didn't bring a lot to the table and merely continued to use Payton as he's always been used. The defense was the difference. And McMahon was a winner, but he wasn't terribly effective. We hail him for 1985 but totally dismiss Dilfer in 2000...because of marketing. Look at the stats...
Trent Dilfer (2000): 8 starts / 7-1 record / 1,502 yards / 12 TD's / 11 INT's
Jim McMahon (1985): 11 starts / 11-0 record / 2,392 yards / 15 TD's / 11 INT's
That's not a whole lot better than Dilfer. But the marketing leaves one with the impression that McMahon was a big part of what they did.
I wouldn't argue Ditka's contribution to the sport as a player. But mainly his efforts have been as a marketer.
Bo
4:33 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012
Yeah sure defense carried them, but you wouldn't say that Bears team was carried more by the defense than that Ravens team. What does marketing have to do with what he did as a coach, Ditka was hired as head coach in '82 of a rudderless franchise and in three years they were Super Bowl champs. Whatever he did, this is a pretty amazing turn-around, and I don't think he was concentrating on marketing himself before that Super Bowl, as such was a tall order he had in front of him. He also played under two of the greatest coaches in NFL history, Halas and Landry, he must have learned something from them. one thing I learned first hand in my time in Chicago is that even the most marginal ex-bear didn't have to do a lot to get whatever commercial and or business opportunity. Mike was 1 of the greatest Bears ever, so he didn't have to do much to get such. I'd add that I am certain he turned down a lot before that SB and I guess he took too much after which led to his falling out of favor with his players. Ditka's coaching ability and accomplishments still have nothing to do with him selling Chunky Soup, and how your making that connection is a bit out in left field. Simply put he was a good coach and far from brutal.
I know Payton, Gault, Mckinnon and Suhey needed someone to throw them the ball, and that entire team respected Mac to great degree. Walter alone took a beating and often finished in last, but sure had great stats, but every defense knew what was coming.
Mike Diviney
5:41 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012
Bo, the fact that no one on here but you has heard of the Gritz Blitz '77 Falcons proves the point. If they were worthy of being in the argument, we all would have heard of them as we've all heard of the '85 Bears, '91 Eagles, etc. I don't agree with your contention that none of us saw the Bears. I don't have their schedule, but I'm sure they were on MNF, I'm sure the Eagles were and I'm sure all their games were not up against each other. Even seeing them once is more times than you saw the Falcons. Plus, we've all heard all about them and know the players on that team. Not so with the Falcons... which proves the point.
Mike Diviney
5:45 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012
I agree Ditka was a good coach. Payton was GREAT and he was a constant before Ditka got there and after. Before Ditka got there, the Bears never had much postseason success with Payton.
Mike Diviney
5:46 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012
Porter, I think a large part of the reason McMahon and Dilfer are viewed differently is because of their personalities.
Porterincollingswood
7:10 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012
Marketing. Hey, I probably over-estimate guys like McMichael and Wilson because the pull of marketing is even more powerful than what I saw with my own eyes as an Eagles fan.
Mike Diviney
5:49 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012
By the way Bo, if you were 11 in '85, then you were 3 in '77. Unless you have memory powers beyond any individual I've ever heard of you NEVER saw this defense you keep bringing up, nor have you ever seen them on film. If they were that great, their reputation would proceed them as the Bears and Eagles unit do... it doesn't.
Bo
6:52 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012
Hey literal guy, this all goes unsaid, which is what I guess I should have more clearly stated. We of course can have a debate about these two teams, mostly by using stats as we were here, and stories by respected football journalist such as Paul Zimmerman, which I added a link about here too. How could we have a debate about the best defense of all time, but limit it to who you might have saw, it seems you should have limited your scope in this debate to the 80's and 90's. It's pretty standard to substantiate any 'all-time' who ever sports figure or team with statistics, or how could anyone have an 'all-time' debate about anything. That Falcons defense still holds the all-time record for fewest points allowed in a season. If you projected their total allowed, with their 9.2 avg per game over two more games, they'd still be 15 or so points lower than that 2000 Ravens defense, which holds the record for a 16 game schedule. You must acknowledge that their reputation is hampered by their horrible offense, scoring 179 points in '77, which was 25th in the league that season.
So if stats can support their seat at the table in this debate, and they do, then they have earned that seat, no matter if I saw it or not.
Jono
5:54 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012
Bloody, brutal, and indomitable .... But not long-lived. R.I.P. Jerome, Reggie, and especially Andre.
Porterincollingswood
7:22 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012
I don't know the 77 Falcons, so I looked. They were decent.
They were the #1 defense, only had one Pro-Bowler in a smaller league. Went 7-7. A few blown leads. Not a whole lotta turnovers.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/atl/1977.htm
Bo
7:47 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012
Yes and that pro-bowler was their left corner, Lawrence, who I imagine had a lot of opportunity yet much stress with all the blitzing they did. They should be recognized in such an all-time debate, even if they weren't the best. The other link supports this with stats, you wouldn't do a similar comparison with only two teams, right. What seems strange to me here, is to not hear anyone mention those Steelers defenses, which have how many enshrined in Canton.
Porterincollingswood
8:46 pm on Friday, July 27, 2012
True, that must've been a hellish assignment.
Mike Diviney
2:21 pm on Saturday, July 28, 2012
Yes, the Steelers deserve mention, which they got in the first paragraph of my article. 14 game schedule, smaller league and I never saw them. They won 4 Superbowls and have a ton of HOF'ers so they have to be given a nod, but not having seen them...
Mike Diviney
2:23 pm on Saturday, July 28, 2012
Not a whole lot of turnovers officially disqualifies them from contention. That's one of the most important stats. The Eagles D led the league in '91 in forced turnovers and I believe the Bears '85 team did as well.
Mike Diviney
2:24 pm on Saturday, July 28, 2012
The Eagles D went a step further. They not only stopped the other team from scoring, they scored themselves. Sometimes, the D outscored the Eagles offense, which wasn't always difficult to do.
Baumer
3:41 pm on Saturday, July 28, 2012
If that team had any type of consistent offense at all I don't think this would even be an argument. That defense dominated like no other but because the offense couldn't put up points in the playoffs, they get overlooked. The Bears' 85 offense was better and scored enough to win the big one...thats the only reason they get mentioned by most as the best D ever.
Mike Diviney
7:20 pm on Sunday, July 29, 2012
Agreed Baumer. The Bears offense wasn't a juggernaut, but they weren't inept like the Eagles. Again, Walter Payton vs. Heath Sherman sums it up.